Disney Parks Transportation

[JMcMahonEsq]

So if the average guest doesn’t care - why did Disney invest in the skyliner and whey do they continue to operate boat routes that aren’t necessary?

It gives WDW an ability to upsell prices at certain resorts by giving a second, alternative access ability to certain parks, without being a necessary requirement for the overall transportation system within/around WDW. It gives something to differentiate the resorts, but they are certainly not the backbone of the transportation system. Given the weather dependent nature of the Skyliner, the fact it requires a set closed loop, and has no flexibility/scalability, its really not that likely to see expansion.

Nor should it really be all that much of a surprise. I mean if you look at the issue of transportation of people around any set location in the US, do you frequently see skyliners or monorails as the transportation model of choice? You get a couple of ferries in isolated locations such as NYC, but the vast majority of people are moved around cities via buses.

For anyone looking at the issue as relating to transportation, it makes zero sense for WDW to not focus on buses. You would be asking the company to choose more expensive, and less efficient methods for doing the job they are trying to do. And if you are not an average guest, and you do happen to care/view transportation as more a ride than a way to get from point A to point B, you can choose to stay at a resort that does have an alternative transportation option....for a price.

 

[osian]

Buses make most sense because WDW (and all cities...) were already built for road traffic. Imagine a WDW that was built with just one massive visitor car parking lot (to "interface" with the outside world) but there was no road network within that is accessible to guests. The whole resort could have been built from the beginning to be based on monorails and peoplemovers. Look at all the congestion problems on the current road network and the massive ongoing costs to restructure the road network to handle the traffic. The expense to build to the road network could have been spent on peoplemover and monorail networks. But perhaps the concept was beyond the technology that existed at the time, hence we're still propagating personal cars and buses, too expensive to rebuild now.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

It gives WDW an ability to upsell prices at certain resorts by giving a second, alternative access ability to certain parks, without being a necessary requirement for the overall transportation system within/around WDW.

You just changed the plot a bit - we are talking about 2 different things.

If the “average guest” doesn’t care - WDW would not have the ability to upsell prices at certain resorts.

I definitely wasn’t saying it’s a necessary requirement for WDW to have a skyliner.

 

[Mr. Engagement]

Disclaimer: I am a nerd.
Great discussion so far!

In keeping with Walt's vision for E.P.C.O.T., I think WDW's transportation should be a gadgetbahn (the word usually refers to "high-tech" transportation ideas that sound exciting and futuristic but may not actually provide as efficient or cost-effective transit solutions as more traditional options like standard trains or buses). Usually, the term is used for things like monorails, PeopleMovers, Hyperloop, etc.

But Walt was way ahead of his time in thinking about multi-modal transit networks. Here are a few that would honor and build on that legacy.

Systems Disney should consider:

Maglev Suspension Railway: Monorail meets Skyliner


Personal Rapid Transit (PRT)
Already used at Heathrow and in the Suncheon Wetlands. Basically TTA PeopleMover with disconnected cars that can each have different destinations.


Next-gen moving walkways/roadways using Disney's Holotile: Variable-speed, 360º movement, lidar-supported routing, grouping (cargo and people) and collision avoidance.


Walt’s "Progress City" was all about vertical layers for transportation. WDW does not leverage this enough!

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

You just changed the plot a bit - we are talking about 2 different things.

If the “average guest” doesn’t care - WDW would not have the ability to upsell prices at certain resorts.

I definitely wasn’t saying it’s a necessary requirement for WDW to have a skyliner.

Not really. That’s why th skyliner only connects to a small subset of hotels. It gives something different as a an offering without being the main focus of the transport system. It’s a extra not a focus

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Buses make most sense because WDW (and all cities...) were already built for road traffic. Imagine a WDW that was built with just one massive visitor car parking lot (to "interface" with the outside world) but there was no road network within that is accessible to guests. The whole resort could have been built from the beginning to be based on monorails and peoplemovers. Look at all the congestion problems on the current road network and the massive ongoing costs to restructure the road network to handle the traffic. The expense to build to the road network could have been spent on peoplemover and monorail networks. But perhaps the concept was beyond the technology that existed at the time, hence we're still propagating personal cars and buses, too expensive to rebuild now.

You always are going to need the road network for fire, police, emergency services, transportation of all the deliveries to the different facilities, construction and maintenence vehicles, service staff and workers are ect. You aren’t getting rid of roads

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Not really. That’s why th skyliner only connects to a small subset of hotels. It gives something different as a an offering without being the main focus of the transport system. It’s a extra not a focus

Nobody said it was a focus?

I’m completely missing your point I think - I’m trying to understand it.

 

[Mr. Engagement]

I mean if you look at the issue of transportation of people around any set location in the US, do you frequently see skyliners or monorails as the transportation model of choice? You get a couple of ferries in isolated locations such as NYC, but the vast majority of people are moved around cities via buses.

Airports use monorails, people movers, subways, and buses. Each has strengths and weaknesses and can serve specialized purposes. Not sure why WDW is locked into being treated as a typical car-based city, other than the fact that they use civic infrastructure for buses.

The whole resort could have been built from the beginning to be based on monorails and peoplemovers.

Exactly. And it should have been. The fact that it wasn't has always been a huge disappointment to me. And a huge missed opportunity for excellent, inspiring, and visionary design.

If they'd done this Walt's way, guests across the country would have been inspired to go back to their cities and call for better solutions in public transit, walkablity/accessiblity and urban planning and design. Instead, they just looked for the cheapest and easiest way to move people from point to point.

Again, I am surprised by how many fans seem willing to settle for buses.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The whole resort could have been built from the beginning to be based on monorails and peoplemovers.

It was. Well…. Monorails, trains and boats! And trams. haha

 

[Mr. Engagement]

You always are going to need the road network for fire, police, emergency services, transportation of all the deliveries to the different facilities, construction and maintenence vehicles, service staff and workers are ect. You aren’t getting rid of roads

Roads aren't really the problem; traffic is.

Emergency vehicles can use pedestrian walkways when needed.

Walt's vision for E.P.C.O.T. addressed this by calling for overlying levels for different types of traffic:

 

[osian]

You always are going to need the road network for fire, police, emergency services, transportation of all the deliveries to the different facilities, construction and maintenence vehicles, service staff and workers are ect. You aren’t getting rid of roads

Indeed. I'm talking about guest transport. One network for guests, another for services. And never the twain shall meet.

 

[Mr. Engagement]

It gives WDW an ability to upsell prices at certain resorts by giving a second, alternative access ability to certain parks, without being a necessary requirement for the overall transportation system within/around WDW. It gives something to differentiate the resorts, but they are certainly not the backbone of the transportation system. Given the weather dependent nature of the Skyliner, the fact it requires a set closed loop, and has no flexibility/scalability, its really not that likely to see expansion.

Not sure why you would conclude that the Skyliner requires a closed loop, isn't flexible or scalable, or isn't likely to be expanded. We explored all of this back in the Skyliner thread you mentioned earlier. Maybe you're just considering Disney's track record?

For anyone looking at the issue as relating to transportation, it makes zero sense for WDW to not focus on buses. You would be asking the company to choose more expensive, and less efficient methods for doing the job they are trying to do. And if you are not an average guest, and you do happen to care/view transportation as more a ride than a way to get from point A to point B, you can choose to stay at a resort that does have an alternative transportation option....for a price.

Again, I don't understand the line of thinking that excuses the cheapest possible solution outside the parks in hopes for additional investment inside the parks. Did the Skyliner come at the expense of in-parks investment?

The idea that monorails for be the rich folks who can afford "monorail resorts" seems like "Spirit Airlines" thinking. But if all amenities, luxuries, and comforts are stripped from the base service, those things never end up being worth the cost to use and the base service loses its value as well.

 

[Mr. Engagement]

Many roads at WDW are private property and were developed through the Reedy Creek Improvement District (connections to local/State roads came at FDOT government expense). Other roads are owned by FDOT, but I don't really understand which are which or why.

Here's a gloriously nerdy history of roads at WDW:

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Not sure why you would conclude that the Skyliner requires a closed loop, isn't flexible or scalable, or isn't likely to be expanded. We explored all of this back in the Skyliner thread you mentioned earlier. Maybe you're just considering Disney's track record?

Because a skyliner is all those things?

It’s a closed loop. The skyliner gondola only goes where the line goes and back: that’s its. Routes can’t be changed, can’t be detoured. Unless you build different stations the gondolas only go point to point.

It’s a fixed structure. Unlike buses you can’t change routes, drop off/pick up locations. Can’t add more during food and wine to epcott, or more to MK during Xmas party.

You can’t expand services without massive capital improvements. You can’t just add in more gondola cars to the system like you can add more buses. You can’t flex up and down based on need. The only think you can do is build up more infrastructure and expand your closed loop, but that’s it. That takes time and a lot of resources. Theres a reason you don’t have gondolas criss crossing NYC, or LA, or Boston.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Again, I don't understand the line of thinking that excuses the cheapest possible solution outside the parks in hopes for additional investment inside the parks. Did the Skyliner come at the expense of in-parks investment?

It’s not the cheapest solution, it’s the most efficient way to move groups of people around a given city/area. It’s why you don’t have monorails taking people to work all over us metropolitan areas. It’s the reasons kids aren’t taking gondolas to school every day. It’s the reasons they didn’t built artificial lakes and canals to boat people around Washington DC.

As to did the skyliner come at the expense of something else? Of course it did. Any capital expenditure/investment is going to be a choice of allocation of resources. Money spent on it are dollars not allocated to other projects. Is the small system that they build a huge draw of funds? In isolation probably not. But I wouldn’t want to see capital funds allocated to its expansion

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Indeed. I'm talking about guest transport. One network for guests, another for services. And never the twain shall meet.

Why for all that is holy would WDW want to spend funds to build and maintain 2 seperate transportation systems/infrastructures?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Is the small system that they build a huge draw of funds? In isolation probably not. But I wouldn’t want to see capital funds allocated to its expansion

Why not? Talking about a reasonable expansion of course

 

[Mr. Engagement]

Because a skyliner is all those things?

It’s a closed loop. The skyliner gondola only goes where the line goes and back: that’s its. Routes can’t be changed, can’t be detoured. Unless you build different stations the gondolas only go point to point.

It’s a fixed structure. Unlike buses you can’t change routes, drop off/pick up locations. Can’t add more during food and wine to epcott, or more to MK during Xmas party.

You can’t expand services without massive capital improvements. You can’t just add in more gondola cars to the system like you can add more buses. You can’t flex up and down based on need. The only think you can do is build up more infrastructure and expand your closed loop, but that’s it. That takes time and a lot of resources. Theres a reason you don’t have gondolas criss crossing NYC, or LA, or Boston.

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant it wouldn't be possible to add additional stations, lines, etc. As we explored in that monster thread, there are ways to route gondolas onto different lines if/when they were to be added.

They can absolutely add/remove cars, though. The system is designed to add/remove cars as needed (or to protect them from bad weather). In this photo, you can see the storage area at Caribbean Beach Resort, where cars have been taken off the line and stored on overhead tracks:

There are TONS of reasons you don't have gondolas criss-crossing major American cities, but efficiency, effectiveness, accessibility, and costs are not the main reasons.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Why not? Talking about a reasonable expansion of course

Because there are better ways to spend the money. Buses are a more effective way to transport people, are more flexible in that they can be be used all over WDW by all guests, and don’t require a capital project and a major outlay of time/money to implement. Put the money into the parks not in what takes a limited number or people to the parks.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Because there are better ways to spend the money.

So you think the existing skyliner was a mistake to build?