Transformative Multi-Year Expansion Announced for WDS Paris

[wdrive]

I don’t think theatre in the stars will be around for much longer

It can’t hold a show, it is pretty ugly, and it’s in prime real estate for a land or sub land that bridges the old and new parts of the park

I’m hoping whatever they do with that plot, it hides the Flight Force show buildings from the lake area and Frozen.

 

[Pizza Moon]

 

[Supersnow84]

That’s ridiculous hyperbole

Sure they probably could have put out a bit more than FEA for the third frozen land and the anchor of the entire back half of the park but to say people have moved past a lived in frozen world is just stupid as evidence by how it basically turned around the entire flailing Hong Kong park by itself

 

[Pizza Moon]

For better or worse, the answer to this resort remains to ignore Disneyland (but refurb it and keep up entertainment) and just plug in a moderate project into DAW every 2-3 years. See if they reach their 22 million in a decade.

I totally disagree. DLP needs a headlining E-ticket.

It’s time.

 

[Pizza Moon]

That’s ridiculous hyperbole

Sure they probably could have put out a bit more than FEA for the third frozen land and the anchor of the entire back half of the park but to say people have moved past a lived in frozen world is just stupid as evidence by how it basically turned around the entire flailing Hong Kong park by itself

I agree it’s hyperbolic but it’s accurate.

8 year turnaround is just ludicrous, 2 years after a significantly better ride opened.

It really is like if the Norway Pavilion was at the back of World Showcase.

And that’s it.

Like the park is lovely now and a park, but what were they thinking?

I am not more likely to book a day based on this expansion. After Lion King, yes I would be.

I imagine MANY are in the same boat, so Disney is just leaving money on the table by A. not building a better Frozen ride from the start and B. Years of profit are left on the table by taking this long to build Lion King, which is crazy considering how much this project cost.

 

[marni1971]

I don’t think theatre in the stars will be around for much longer

It’s well known it’s a placeholder and capacity valve for high season.

 

[marni1971]

I totally disagree. DLP needs a headlining E-ticket.

It does. But it’s also Europe’s highest attended paid theme park already. Funds are still being diverted next door with an acknowledgment the second gate still needs more. Some would say they could afford to do both but hey.

 

[Pizza Moon]

It does. But it’s also Europe’s highest attended paid theme park already. Funds are still being diverted next door with an acknowledgment the second gate still needs more. Some would say they could afford to do both but hey.

Magic Kingdom is the most attended park in the world and is not only getting a new land done right but a Frontierland expansion, multiple ride refurbishments, and potentially other new unannounced attractions.

And all the other Orlando parks are getting expansions too.

If we merely apply a 1:4 formula of funds that go to DAW versus DLP, that would be a much better calculus once Lion King opens, completing the park’s planned transformation.

 

[Pizza Moon]

I heard that rumor (on this board). I’d imagine if fire and ash pulls in similar numbers to way of water, it would be quite likely.

Why would Indiana Jones have to close? Couldn’t Adventure slide right in next to it, or if they do Moana couldn’t that also just be on either side of it?

Why take the capacity loss.

At that point I’d expand in Discoveryland or Fantasyland if Adventureland requires taking what is actually a decent (albeit minor scaled) coaster.

 

[Supersnow84]

I agree it’s hyperbolic but it’s accurate.

8 year turnaround is just ludicrous, 2 years after a significantly better ride opened.

It really is like if the Norway Pavilion was at the back of World Showcase.

And that’s it.

Like the park is lovely now and a park, but what were they thinking?

I am not more likely to book a day based on this expansion. After Lion King, yes I would be.

I imagine MANY are in the same boat, so Disney is just leaving money on the table by A. not building a better Frozen ride from the start and B. Years of profit are left on the table by taking this long to build Lion King, which is crazy considering how much this project cost.

I don’t think it’s fair to consider the entire time taken from announcement even if Paris has been way too slow because Covid threw everything out and this expansion was meant to launch with two lands, the other being galaxy’s edge

Anna and Elsa’s frozen adventure is a much better ride but it’s also OLC exclusive and cost near a billion itself. They had to reinvent the park alongside giving WDS new rides

I don’t think they did everything right here but I also think that what they have chosen to do is better than leaving the back half closed till lion king is ready

And the frozen land they built is evidently a draw if hong Kong is anything to go by

 

[marni1971]

Magic Kingdom is the most attended park in the world and is not only getting a new land done right but a Frontierland expansion, multiple ride refurbishments, and potentially other new unannounced attractions.

Correct. Although there’s no “unannounced” attractions. Many also question the Frontierland decision.

Disneyland Parc has had the majority of its attractions rebuilt from the ground up over the last decade. As in fully rebuilt, not just renovated. The castle was substantially renovated. Fantasyland was repaved. All the Fantasyland roofs replaced. Space Mountains roof renovated and the electrical and lighting system replaced. A new night show with new infrastructure. They even replaced the town square gazebo like for like.

It would be disingenuous to pretend the park has been ignored or not had a LOT of money spent on it.

 

[marni1971]

I agree it’s hyperbolic but it’s accurate.

8 year turnaround is just ludicrous, 2 years after a significantly better ride opened.

It really is like if the Norway Pavilion was at the back of World Showcase.

It’s not accurate. Due to Covid the lake project (always the later phase) began work properly in 2022. That’s 4 years. Could it have been quicker than that? Possibly.

This project so far isn’t meant to be a park with double the attractions. I’m as frustrated as anyone about the lack of actual new attractions. I believe omitting RotR was a big mistake. They’re hoping for some payback by attracting the Frozen fans but this is primarily laying the groundwork for the future whilst giving the park more physical breathing room and a purpose built night show theatre to justify all day park hours.

Let’s also remember Sunset Blvd opened with one ride and one show and New Fantasyland opened with just one ride.

 

[Pizza Moon]

It’s not accurate. Due to Covid the lake project (always the later phase) began work properly in 2022. That’s 4 years. Could it have been quicker than that? Possibly.

From announced to completion, it was well over 4 years

Sure, COVID through a huge wrench, but the plans calling for a D-ticket at best boat ride is no different than them plopping slinky or Under the Sea and calling it a day.

That’s what the general public is going to subconsciously associate with this expansion, and I don’t think the general public is so stupid as to book a trip specifically for a Norway-sized area.

If you’re already at the resort or were planning to go, it’s a big upgrade as part of a park that is now much prettier, and it will fit well into a larger park, but these rides last decades, and not just doing it right from the start is silly. Not just providing a draw, not a single major ride as a draw for all the billions and prettiness they’ve poured until 2028/29 is next level arrogance in my opinion.

This project so far isn’t meant to be a park with double the attractions. I’m as frustrated as anyone about the lack of actual new attractions. I believe omitting RotR was a big mistake. They’re hoping for some payback by attracting the Frozen fans but this is primarily laying the groundwork for the future whilst giving the park more physical breathing room and a purpose built night show theatre to justify all day park hours.

This is a horrible strategy, plus it’s less the amount and just the quality.

This project reminds me of what Disney wanted to do with Potter, just the bare minimum with nice theming. It’s like, Frozen is a mega franchise, it deserves Pandora-level cash thrown at it, at least certainly 1 major ride…

Let’s also remember Sunset Blvd opened with one ride and one show and New Fantasyland opened with just one ride.

New Fantasyland was a joke when it opened and was deservingly criticized for it, and even completed was very undercooked for what MK should’ve gotten, both rides were weaker than what should’ve been and the entire Storybook Circus area was a joke; they needed a bigger budget, but I think atmospherically and with SDMT it was a massive win in the end, yet nowhere near what Universal has been delivering or what Disney has been capable of, I mean, this was Cars Land era WDI…

They’ve obviously learned their mistakes with MK as a park specifically, but why not everywhere? The lessons learned there should apply to DAW too.

I also don’t think Tower of Terror and Frozen: Ever After is the comparison you want to make.

 

[Supersnow84]

You say “throw avatar money at it” but is there anything wrong with arendelle? The land is thematically perfect (well at least Hong Kong’s is) while Tokyo’s is an absolute mess that makes no structural sense. Would throwing more money at the theming have led to a better arendelle? Or just a better ride?

Because again FEA is arguably not enough for the entire back half of WDS but arendelle itself is much better than Tokyo, so what do you value more

 

[marni1971]

I also don’t think Tower of Terror and Frozen: Ever After is the comparison you want to make.

I do. You complained about a new area opening with one attraction. To many FEA - for better or for worse - will be perceived as great. As will the wider land. Especially for the target demographic. The resort is being widely marketed in Europe at the moment with this park leading the advertising.

From announced to completion, it was well over 4 years

Did you miss the part where the project was announced from day one as being phased? And then being interrupted by 3 lockdowns ?

I’m not saying this is the best thing Disney have ever done. I’m disappointed about Rise and its showing that TWDC are now in full control - again for better or for worse - and it’s bad show opening with not 1 but 2 areas under construction. But it’s making and is going to make a world of difference for this park.

 

[Pizza Moon]

You say “throw avatar money at it” but is there anything wrong with arendelle? The land is thematically perfect (well at least Hong Kong’s is) while Tokyo’s is an absolute mess that makes no structural sense. Would throwing more money at the theming have led to a better arendelle? Or just a better ride?

Because again FEA is arguably not enough for the entire back half of WDS but arendelle itself is much better than Tokyo, so what do you value more

Yes, it needs a Flight of Passage level ride.

And while yes, it will be fine in a park with a couple more E-tickets, it should’ve been one of them, and this will be a problem for years to come, and even beyond that since Frozen should’ve had a better ride. Big picture it won’t matter as much, but why spend billions only to not have those cash flows maxed out ASAP and why was the plan always to ancho a multi-billion dollar investment with tier-2 attraction? Very silly on Disney’s part.

I’m not a pixie duster and I’m also not bitter over Disney, I view them as a mixed bag, this being one of those examples.

I also don’t think Tokyo’s land being weaker argument makes sense when you consider it is basically a large miniland as part of a larger land like New Fantasyland. The rides are all killer though, something that Disney’s 3 attempts never could do. If you slot them 1:1 Tokyo’s no doubt would take the cake if located on water like at DAW, regardless though I think it’s irrelevant: the reality is they didn’t give us Radiator Springs Racers, Flight of Passage, Rise of the Resistance, Shanghai Pirates, or Frozen Journey.

You spend over $2 billion on a park only for its new rides to be Web Slingers and Frozen: Ever After and you have a problem, forget COVID, this was always phase 1, but it got delayed so hard to the point plans could’ve been modified; it was always a mistake but it’s only worse now with it being 2026. That said I love what they did as a whole, the park will actually deserve potentially a second day after Lion King, but for the time being at least it feels like a theme park throughout most of it.

They didn’t have to clone Frozen Journey, but FEA, despite it being enjoyable enough, is so tonally weak, happy “yayayay” vibes instead of you know, actual pacing and tension like dark rides have, even for what they have it isn’t good it’s just enough. I just think Disney thinks the Frozen demographic is “good enough” to give them that, but they couldn’t be more wrong. I also think HKDL’s Frozen land wasn’t billed as some doubling of the park, and it also expands on what is a weaker Disney park but actually a “park”, so it makes sense people would pull the trigger for a trip to the resort. Japan ofc has insane Disney fandom, but even for Fantasy Springs’ issues, they still did it right, massive budget, incredible rides, epic scale.

Disney Adventure World needed to get a Fantasy Springs scaled area to open in addition to whatever previous park improvements were done and Adventure Way and Adventure Bay.

I’m not joking when I say that. Just opening it with Galaxy’s Edge and the whole lagoon wouldn’t be enough, it would have to be a little more extensive.

Frozen with an E-ticket done right, doesn’t have to be Frozen Journey as-is wouldn’t even be enough, but it would at least carry over to the next land and then make the park feel fuller when done.

I just remember myself looking outside of MiraCosta at Tokyo DisneySea, and seeing Mt. Prometheus with its incredible ride Journey to the Center of the Earth inside. It draw you in. Frozen, draws you into what? What is the weenie of Elsa’s Castle and mountain for? A plussed Fantasyland dark ride; ignoring its length, it’s weaker than many of them arguably.

And one ride for a new land that isn’t an E-ticket is just ridiculous. Ridiculous as is for just 1 in a vacuum which is why Tokyo and HKDL have more too because it is simply ridiculous. Though HKDL’s coaster is so bad I can see why they didn’t even bother.

If they had a SDMT level ride it could feel more like Isle of Berk then. Then in tandem, I think it would’ve been fine too, though in the wrong order, I would’ve had the E-ticket land open first, now the one with two D-tickets.

 

[nickys]

Magic Kingdom is the most attended park in the world and is not only getting a new land done right but a Frontierland expansion, multiple ride refurbishments, and potentially other new unannounced attractions.

And all the other Orlando parks are getting expansions too.

If we merely apply a 1:4 formula of funds that go to DAW versus DLP, that would be a much better calculus once Lion King opens, completing the park’s planned transformation.

WDS was always planned to have 3 lands. They just didn’t announce what the 3rd would be.

 

[marni1971]

Yes, it needs a Flight of Passage level ride.

In many people’s eyes that would be a bigger waste of funds. This park doesn’t need more hour plus queues for a 4 minute film. That’s one reason Rise would have been perfect. A lengthy, hi tech E ticket, with a queue that becomes an attraction in its own right to extend the pay off to over 30 minutes of entertainment.

And one ride for a new land that isn’t an E-ticket is just ridiculous.

In this sense E ticket is subjective. Some say New Fantasyland doesn’t have an E ticket standard attraction. The Toy Story lands don’t have an E.

 

[Pizza Moon]

WDS was always planned to have 3 lands. They just didn’t announce what the 3rd would be.

I know

 

[Pizza Moon]

In many people’s eyes that would be a bigger waste of funds. This park doesn’t need more hour plus queues for a 4 minute film. That’s one reason Rise would have been perfect. A lengthy, hi tech E ticket, with a queue that becomes an attraction in its own right to extend the pay off to over 30 minutes of entertainment.

I didn’t mean literally FoP, but a ride as good and big budgeted as it, and the others mentioned. That’s all Frozen needed, or a second ride SDMT level would’ve been a fine approach too. As-is, the park won’t get what it’s needed until Lion King, and that is when the park, forget any other project, will be completed.

Notwithstanding all the money they’re leaving on the table, brand being weakened by not delivering a product people know they could and should, the lack of lessons learned from Galaxy’s Edge and New Fantasyland, long-term consequences of not having a proper Frozen area, etc.

It’s literally more like a really well done pavilion than a full land in scale, which is going to mismatch expectations. It’s like a big miniland, would fit right in next to Ariel at MK.

Frozen felt like HDKL’s Fantasyland expansion, which it should’ve been done right and with better rides, but it’s what we got and slotted into a park that already had its massive investment round unlike DAW, and it and was an obvious piecemeal improvement, where as with Paris, it’s obviously a very small part of a much larger vision that will be awesome to watch unfold, but still with the issues I’ve pointed out in this thread and post.

In this sense E ticket is subjective. Some say New Fantasyland doesn’t have an E ticket.

New Fantasyland doesn’t really and that’s always been its problem frankly as SDMT commanded far too high waits for what it was before TRON, but SDMT is better executed and larger scaled than Frozen: Ever After.

On both fronts (I want to emphasize execution too because rides like Tiana’s make their experience a lot weaker and obviously an outdated ride can be hurt too, it’s to some degree arbitrary, but it’s very useful for generally gauging things, and I think you get what I’m specifically angling at about the rides mentioned, though I can clarify if you’d like.

But it still wouldn’t be enough to anchor Frozen properly, and especially not the whole massive lagoon area they just added, but SDMT alone themed to Frozen would be better since it’s a much better ride.

I just don’t feel the infrastructure beautification/improvements are remotely enough in quality and scale to justify not opening Frozen with a couple rides or a single E-ticket ride.

If the American Adventure was the only attraction at World Showcase it would also have problems pulling in people. Swap with just Norway, it’s the same problem for one because 1 pavilion doesn’t keep you long enough to draw everyone to and not having a major “attraction” as a draw is an issue; if this exact expansion opened at DLP, I would’ve taken issue and criticized Frozen: Ever After, but I don’t think it would feel the same.

Remember, they have to both draw people from DLP, get people to stay for extra days, and pull in new people to the resort. It’ll do all 3, but I don’t think it’ll remotely do what they wanted because it isn’t going to be a draw on the level of Cars Land. Maybe Lion King and Frozen combined will be, b it you also have to remember that the rest of the park is still way worse than DCA became after its redo; the park needs to totally aesthetic redo of Worlds of Pixar still and they need to do the area around Tot right. We’re stuck with Marvel and while I like it, it’s also value engineered. You can just feel it when you have lands like Discoveryland next door.

That specific issue will change with Lion King, but they shouldn’t have taken this route, it was a miscalculation in them which has left money on the table thinking they could overly extend the Disney brand by not specifically catering the Frozen land to what it needed to be for the park itself, and is just flat out